Daniel Markham 0:03
Did you hear that c++ classes are most always richer than Java classes? That's right. They'd have multiple inheritance out he hadn't had a day your mark on with nerd round up. Your grown up come to you every week with tech news jokes, lame humor, people yawning, eating all sorts of fun stuff. It's been a hoot for a good notice about six months now. It's been fun to do it every week. I have an open invite James greetings with us today. Greg young may come by little later. Scott Ambler accepted and then I had to turn it down and john Kern is unfortunately going to the dentist today. So I did this email. Hey, Dan, I really want to come by your podcast but I have this root canal I'm looking forward to Yeah, you know, you're having a hard time but looking forward to go. But But James is with us, James. How's it going? Dude?

James Grenning 1:01
It's going good. Dan.

Unknown Speaker 1:03
Did you catch the the big rocket the spaceship SpaceX thing yesterday.

James Grenning 1:07
You know, I saw some tweets about it but I didn't you know, I kind of out of out of it for that news and cool to see that one off.

Daniel Markham 1:15
Yeah, if anybody's interested This is a story in progress. So we're gonna have to kind of skip big parts of it. But there is a site for the Amazon there's a cipher these guys don't know. It's inspiration for you're interested in it. They shot four people into space last night about 8pm Eastern time. And they're going to orbit I think around 240 miles over the earth and there's a big glass dome they can stick their head out look around. It's it was I was I was burning out big time yesterday

James Grenning 1:47
by the air. Finally they're prioritizing windows on those spacecraft,

Daniel Markham 1:51
I guess. Yeah. Yeah, it's it's it's you know, it's funny because it used to be just a tin can they were just like they used to call it the monkey and they can't because they stick the guy in there and you could

stand in the Blue Origin mock up it was a

while that never happens James is waps to us would not be a nerd rounded without some sort of problem. Well, I'm just gonna carry Ah

yeah, I was frozen. You were frozen? Who's frozen?

Yeah, I think it would not be underground. It cured and drop at some point or somebody freeze you know what I need is a neat like little puppet people I can like sit next to you guys can just use the phone and call in and I'll move them

James Grenning 2:59
so you were talking about you've been doing this week

Daniel Markham 3:02
while I I killed about six hours on updating the nerd roundup script. Actually, I you know, created this card system a couple of weeks back. Would you say? Yeah, it's

James Grenning 3:18
sorry. Go ahead. Ah, okay, here it went you've been doing damn

Daniel Markham 3:26
Okay, yeah, slow down just a little bit for these dogs are dying. I have been working on a bash script I updated the nerd roundup site so that we can keep track of all the articles snapshotted which is on the archives page. And I made these into cards instead of a table then this is a good example of how can having of coming up with one simple idea and making it a monster item and I thought I would put a second article if people were interested died down. Then I had this card thing already do so now to bash scripts one to make a table for the blog, page three, one to make the cards and one to make the audio processing. So yeah, it's it's fun. I just at the point where I'm doing a lot of manual work. So I can sort of codified it and then bake it automated in that that part sucks.

James Grenning 4:16
You mean the manual part?

Daniel Markham 4:17
Yes. I find I can. Yeah, I can. I can imagine a lot more cool stuff manually than I actually have the time and patience to do. Okay, so after this we have the this is a fun fun story. This is optical cavity induced current. So these guys these guys say that you build a small enough chamber I think out of glass that you can actually pull energy from the vacuum. Not the vacuum cleaner but the the vacuum of space like the quantum foam. Yeah, yeah, they made it PDF and everything. So it's good. It's it's got footnotes. So I mean, Hey, I know. This is Example number 17 of we can pull energy from the quantum phone. I don't know I, I want to believe

James Grenning 5:20
this is going to be tapping dark energy.

Daniel Markham 5:23
That's correct, they will see they don't really know what's happening at this sub subatomic level. They know there's a quantum phone, and they know that energy is created manner and the matter particle department, they know that. But they don't really know what's happens over big distances, very small distances. So there's a lot a lot of holes in the theory and people are claiming they can pull energy out. This will be free energy, this if this works, you can just get a little box full box full of free energy.

James Grenning 5:54
There's no such thing as free.

Daniel Markham 5:56
Oh, yeah. You know, there'll be like a subscription service

James Grenning 5:59
or a different universe. Somebody's paying for that.

Daniel Markham 6:03
Yeah, like TVs in the other universe all go off at the same time.

James Grenning 6:09
Who's using our power? I gotta get my

Daniel Markham 6:11
Tesla working. Reminds me of the Christmas vacation where the guy puts the lights all over the house. They finally get some work in and all the lights in the city go off.

James Grenning 6:24
Yeah. So the Chevy Chase movies now.

Daniel Markham 6:30
I love me some Chevy chick. I love the old Chevy Chase. He became a difficult being along with fairly early that kind of ring stuff. Yeah, they said that. I think somebody said that. Looking at the cases aren't allowed. Either you learn to be humble or you've learned to be an asshole. They all come out that one way or the other. Yeah. This is

James Grenning 6:54
Oh, you die. Are you dying? With you?

Daniel Markham 6:58
Oh, by the way, that was a thing that my wife was watching yesterday was William Shatner reviewing impersonations of William Shatner. We're kind of reaching the reflective recursive nature of modern media. This guy he did a helped me page for all sorts of things Erling and beam elixir beam is the platform that Erling runs on just like lamp. This looks really cool. I also have not read this, but I want to bookmark it. Because I have decided that my next language is going to be early. It's just too cool to pass up.

James Grenning 7:35
I got down to processes was looking at some of that it's nice circles and arrows and diagrams and things here as

Daniel Markham 7:43
well. Were we talking were you and I were talking about this or maybe it was earnings built to fail, they they started the whole thing out with, okay, every program is going to fail. And so because they expect programs to fail and restart and all that they really have less of a problem. It is everything, something's

James Grenning 8:02
gonna fail, and then it can just start itself back up again or Yes. Somebody notices.

Daniel Markham 8:08
Yes, there's a bug that yeah, that's why the play, it's not just the language is the platform, you want to learn how to do the online transaction processor. You want to learn how to manage processes. The thing is, is if you write good or rank, then it never fails. You know, it just runs. But if you're battling this thing still runs. No, that's cool. Just doesn't do what you want.

James Grenning 8:33
There's some non surprising things in here. And just looking at the picture of stacks in heaps, it's like okay, just like C he grows in the stack grows and they play crash in the middle, then something bad will happen.

Daniel Markham 8:45
Yes, talk I think was Greg was talking to you, they have an actor model, which some people say is actually the way c++ o is supposed to be. You send a message to an actor or a class. And it goes away. Really? What happens after that?

James Grenning 9:00
Did you ever? Like in the late 90s? Did you ever see the platform called Ace? No. asynchronous? I think it's a synchronous communication environment. And Doug Schmidt Is that the right name, Doug Smith, University of St. Louis, or some University in St. Louis. It was a thing he was building. And so you could actually have code that was running Windows or Linux or Mac that had this Ace platform. And it relied heavily on actor, my active objects and things like that. And, you know, if you were to look at the way most people do concurrency, and C and c++, it's using all the primitives the most dangerous thing possible, yes. And they'd be much better off, you know, graduating to active object and encapsulated concurrency mechanisms. Yeah, I

Daniel Markham 9:51
totally agree. I think that when the languages are built from the actor model up, that they automatically scale up pretty quickly, I think They're kind of bolted in later it becomes it becomes a problem either in performance, or people forgetting things.

James Grenning 10:08
Oh, yeah. Yeah, no doubt. The there's a book by pragmatic programmers called the seven concurrency models in seven weeks while and it's not starts with the basic model where you own the primitives, like mutexes, and condition, various semaphores, and threads and semaphores and such. And they say, by the way, no one should do this.

Daniel Markham 10:33
Well, yeah, you're like a sucker for pain. Yeah.

James Grenning 10:36
Most of you are capable of getting it right. And, and then they say, Okay, so that was that model. And that's what most people do. And C and c++. What should you do? And that's the second model, which is, I think it's accurate message queues and, you know, protecting shared resources with queues instead of locks. And you know, the queuing mechanism has locks in it. Yes. You don't have to touch those because somebody smart put that together.

Daniel Markham 11:02
Yeah. Yeah, it goes up from there. And then you end up with queueing issues. And the circular references you see, it's funny, you could get a lot of that out of the system. But at some point, some of those things will still bite you just in sort of a long about way. You'll take a message or throw it on the queue, and then B takes a message and throws it back to you. And you didn't know you get it for. And then you guys just in this little circle, I saw about a lot who spent $100,000, from AWS buy cars, this this very thing A to B, B to C, C to A and it just AWS go burn, money flight.

James Grenning 11:43
That mistake cost 100 grand, yes. observer time, because they had it set to scale automatically. Yes. Yeah. Okay. Reminder yourself. Don't ever do that. Okay.

Daniel Markham 11:52
Yeah. I think the next comment was like, You, of course, went to this customer service. And he's like, Well, you know, actually, they're the ones that shut it down. Because they're guests, they have alarms, if you spend $100,000. Yeah, that's gonna be hard to explain. It's not the old one, I work with a startup that spent 40 grand on their first machine learning journey. So some of the most iconic 911 news coverage is lost. And if you haven't follow along with the story that used to be this thing, way back in the dark ages called Adobe Flash, and it would do these animations and graphics and all these cool, it was really, really neat. And it was really, really buggy and was a monster code and people used it to attack other people's machines. And so the powers that being said, Nope, we're not going to support Adobe Flash anymore. Well, guess what? We got millions of pages that aren't going to be updated that use Adobe Flash, so we're losing our history.

James Grenning 12:58
The electronic history could last forever, except it will be incompatible. VML the format?

Daniel Markham 13:03
Well, yeah, and sometimes, just unaccessible view. I mean, some of those really old those were those old eight inch floppies Sure, you can buy readers for those, but they're hard five, I've got a 1.5 terabyte and this is just from seven years ago, multiple five terabyte big drive. And hell if I can I find I think the closest one was like $2,000 maybe it's crazy expensive, because it's just so rare. Alright, so yes, it's sad. On a lighter note. There's evidence for mushroom intelligence. You heard it here first. Mushrooms from another plant not for Well, I guess they could be from another plant that could be sourced with mushrooms for another planet, or rising up with their intelligence to come after you. Yeah, I don't know what to do with that. I just cannot mushroom begin. Have you met in an intelligent mushrooms? James.

James Grenning 14:04
Where's this mushroom article?

Daniel Markham 14:07
It's right here.

James Grenning 14:08
It's looking at your spreadsheets and obsolete now.

Daniel Markham 14:10
It's only Okay, maybe I moved it to the next one. Hang

James Grenning 14:18
on. That's okay. I don't even we can. You briefed me on it because I didn't read it anyway. But

Daniel Markham 14:26
yeah, basically, this guy's making an argument much the same they made with plants. If you've followed some of that they say that plants if you attack one plant over time the other plants know that you attack them.

James Grenning 14:42
What does no mean in this context?

Daniel Markham 14:45
Well, you know all those phone calls you get where they hang up. It's these trees that you've been abusing all over the years. No, I I think what they're trying to take is signaling and perhaps some sort of complex signaling process. And map that onto human intelligence.

James Grenning 15:04
All right, and so then Lord of the Rings when the trees go and start fighting the bad wizard. Oh, yeah. Is that our future as a evolved

Daniel Markham 15:17
burger earner? I love those kinds of treats. They were awesome. They were cool. Just don't make them mad. Yeah, I there's an article if you go to the archives page for this blog entry, or you just go to the morgue. The backup for this is actually a list of different intelligent, like, you know, top ones man and underneath a dolphin or whatever it is. Interesting stuff. I think we're sort of near the bottom. It's like, third round up folks right? Above mushrooms, but just not the level of trees yet.

James Grenning 15:56
Okay, so what? I understand what you're saying, I know you're bringing cute girls into the nerd roundup?

Daniel Markham 16:05
I am not. You would think I would be but I am not. This is a picture of a very attractive person. Looks a little bit more info maybe not not a real person at all. Not a real person. Yes. And what they've decided is the problem with these social media influencers that you pay to go to parties and advertise your stuff, is those dang things. They're human. It's the problem and they get online, they get drunk and they say stupid things and they go to places that are shouldn't go. Why don't we just create an artificial person? And that's what they've done. And it looks just like a real person. You can do the pictures, they met the party, the pictures and Dude, you can just pose them. They never make a mistake. This ever drink too much? I don't think so. But I would tell you if they drink I would want to get into a contest with one. If you remember Max Headroom from the 80s. Sure. This is this is the actual one. This is it. And the thing is, this is really wild because what they're doing is you're simulating more and more of our interaction with other people online in ways that we can't really tell. Many times, many times I've been online and I've been corresponding with somebody I'm like, I wonder if this is a person or not. And I don't know it's odd. A Look at this picture of a girl blowing up the candles on her birthday cake. But none of this actually was a little bit fake. That does look for her skins is to

James Grenning 17:36
something's not right. to perfect.

Daniel Markham 17:39
Here's a girl holding a glass. Yeah, we're kind of at the 90% of times. I think they can get us 10% we can spot it face.

James Grenning 17:49
And there's none of these virtual guys because nobody really wants to see virtual guys.

Daniel Markham 17:54
Right? Well, I know I didn't want to see you there may be I don't know I I'm sure there is. But it's interesting that although article pictures here. Yeah. Female as part of the dang patriarchy. We live in James.

James Grenning 18:14
Yeah, women are taking over.

Daniel Markham 18:16
That's a matriarchy. We're we're. We're the patriarch x. Yeah. Yeah, they're the matriarch guys really other team. So back to a series thing. Here.

James Grenning 18:33
What training cows,

Daniel Markham 18:35
not yet cows are coming. We just finished the fungus social media. And now we're done at six. Okay, here's a entry from the one of the designers of dotnet. Six. bless their hearts, the dotnet team, and they make a kick ass product that I love and use every day. But they have not stopped and they continue to do stuff. This guy is announcing all the cool stuff that can do with what they call minimal API. And here he makes a web application says hello world in just three lines of code. He maps and

James Grenning 19:10
if you believe there's only three lines of code Well, yeah. what's underneath that web application create?

Daniel Markham 19:19
Well, I want to make it we just draw like you make a gesture with your hands. And that is hello world.

James Grenning 19:25
Would it be just thought about hello world and then it happens? Oh, that works too.

Daniel Markham 19:29
You know, what we need is a job making HelloWorld for people because that would be frickin easy as hell. It's just

James Grenning 19:37
Well, I gotta tell you, I'm really grateful for the people that make Hello worlds in every language because the starting point like Python, web, things would be the whole world flask app. And then you just carefully turn that into the thing you need. One little change at a time. So it's good that people made Hello World Without hello world would know where to start? I wouldn't know where to start.

Daniel Markham 20:02
No. And you notice this is quite Earth centric. They don't have a low Venus or a low Mars. It's just No, it's just,

James Grenning 20:11
well wait world is ambiguous as

Daniel Markham 20:14
well, we keep changing that it used to be cosmos, but then Cosmos was the Mediterranean and they changed it to world. And now as you say world is also still ambiguous.

James Grenning 20:24
And there is a there's a mistake in his mistake. Well, hello world, every time I've ever seen it implemented is Hello, comma, world. So he's missing the camera. Check it out. Go. Look,

Daniel Markham 20:39
I'm looking right here. It's a sad thing is a sad thing.

James Grenning 20:42
No, let me go. From there missing comma, for sure. And it's kind of put a comment on this page.

Daniel Markham 20:52
Yeah, I was blessed. Wow. So the thing here, I like what they're doing. Don't get me wrong. Actually, I wish they had done this to start with, start with something simple, then you dive down as needed to put other stuff in. Instead, where they came from was trying to maintain all this legacy stuff. And so this journey they've been on has been complex complexity, flexing, flex and flex way up to this like a mile high thing. And then now they're on top this mile high tower trying to add like, four or five little methods. And yeah, be great. As long as you don't have to dive down in that tower if you're going to supplement that stuff.

James Grenning 21:26
That's right, yep. When you go, f get this thing, then, you know, it takes a half hour to download it. But you can make HelloWorld in two seconds once you have that, right.

Daniel Markham 21:38
And that's that's usually this what we're talking about with threads is that as you encapsulate you try to take care of like 90 95% of the use cases. But if you get a rare use case that stacks through the layers, then you get your take, and it's in your very sad. Yeah. Speaking of use cases and rare cases and thinking, here's a company that says stripe, banned us for payment disputes, but we never had a payment dispute. This guess what Hacker News was like hey, stripe won't take won't process our money anymore. Many times stripe will keep your money.

James Grenning 22:19
And we

we don't know why.

I've heard that they're on the part of the censoring big tech gang, too.

Daniel Markham 22:32
Yes. So funny because they came on it. Oh, why? And the answer the hackers came up with was you probably trip some sort of AI flag somewhere yourself.

James Grenning 22:43
You probably said something bad against

Daniel Markham 22:45
we could have said something better you just your behaviors. It's the problem with AI enforcement of rules is that you don't know you in so many times. They won't tell you it's just you did a thing. That's a like maybe mind cough story.

James Grenning 23:03
Probably but I forgot already. So.

Daniel Markham 23:06
So I was I didn't know Facebook many years before I finally quit. And one day I found this joke is a cartoon and it was really funny. And at the end the punch line was this guy pulling a book out of a Christmas present back it said mine calm. It was in the background of the last page the cartoon I posted Hey, this is pretty funny. They misunderstood what the guy wanted. I got banned. I mean, I think up but I got the thing deleted. I got the warning thing and all that and my friend was like, Hey, you can't miss those things you just can't do at all. Okay, I can't tell the joke with certain words.

James Grenning 23:43
Yep. But someone could probably accuse you of being a Nazi. And that would be okay.

Daniel Markham 23:50
I have no idea. I don't I don't know how to you know, there was another story that I didn't cover was that the for people who are special blue check to people that confirm celebrities, because they're a special category. The AI doesn't run the same way that it runs for other people.

James Grenning 24:07
Oh, interesting.

Daniel Markham 24:10
Yeah, so good luck figuring that out. The really cool part about this nerd discussion as far as the story goes is the strike one of the stripe co founders came on and said guys, I I'm really sorry, we really screwed the pooch on si we're going to collect your luck. Yeah, you did. That was a that was a cool thing.

James Grenning 24:33
Somebody's taking accountability.

Daniel Markham 24:36
Wow. Taking accountability and actually, you know, talking to the community. Yeah, it's good. This next article is a pretty mind blowing. When we get to the sort of died down part. This guy makes a case that aetherium will overtake Bitcoin and as I scan his text Yeah. I think aetherium probably will, because aetherium supports a sort of much more flexible system of contracts and does web three stuff. If you've heard of web three?

James Grenning 25:10
I haven't heard of aetherium.

Daniel Markham 25:15
cryptocurrency or you know, cryptocurrency, oh, you're on the video, I guess.

James Grenning 25:24
You got these pages that decided that they know better than me and they want me to listen to their video. So I get rid of that.

Daniel Markham 25:31
So yeah, cryptocurrency is basically stamp collecting for nerds. Because it's nerd sake made a million dollars off of it doesn't mean it doesn't even because it's nerds, you don't even need the stamps. You're just collecting hooks or bytes.

James Grenning 25:45
When people hug their bitcoins today, like look at it and hex or binary or octal, or what,

Daniel Markham 25:51
like, dreaming of riches, like you dream of these hex numbers coming into the sky roll around a bunch of bits. Yeah, I don't know if that works. But different cryptocurrencies have different rules, because it is based on computer programming and protocols. And this web three thing, as I understand it, is completely wild. So let me explain this to you. First, this guy makes the case that aetherium will eventually beat out Bitcoin. And as part of that discussion, they get into web three, they did this on Hacker News, I think I have the link somewhere. Web three, let's say you want to go online and you want to be Joe Smith, you can sign up to be Joe Smith, you can get a big hunk of bits that says, hey, you're Joe Smith, you could stick money in that big hunk of bits. And then as you visit websites, you can pay for things with the Joe Smith big hunk of money in your bits. instead of actually associating the kind of transaction or whatever with you. It's completely transparent web usage. And they can also store things in there, like your favorite color. It just takes the identity part of the equation for web browsing. And I think it sounds awesome. I vote for that right away.

James Grenning 27:06
Yeah. So Google and company will probably be enough for that. Right?

Daniel Markham 27:10
I yeah, yeah. I imagine you'll hear a bunch of political bullshit in the next three or four years, especially as this takes off, it will be I can't predict what will be maybe it will be a tackle on individual freedoms.

James Grenning 27:22
I think we'll probably have the name back. You could say this Act, which allows you to be anonymous on the internet, which actually bans being anonymous.

Daniel Markham 27:31
Yes, we get rid of this crypto guys who are stealing money. Instead we have the freedom to be yourself are, you know, the self promote whatever they'll call it? Something like orphans, money free orphan money for orphans. And then it'll be screwing us are?

James Grenning 27:45
Yeah. Money for money for orphans. Yep.

Daniel Markham 27:50
So that's one thing is really cool. And I can see I can always see how you would implement that. And that is that it's, it's still in the beta stage. So if you're going to play with it, I hear that it's kind of clunky. Bitcoin billionaires bet big on reviving woolly mammoths to combat climate change. So I have this picture in my mind of these herd of woolly mammoths with these billionaires writing mill top attacking oil wells and like destroying them. Did you read this story?

James Grenning 28:23
I did not.

Daniel Markham 28:25
Have you ever written on Oh, believe it?

James Grenning 28:28
Well, yeah, of course.

Daniel Markham 28:34
I googled writing a woolly mammoth. And then they have stuff once you guess people take your picture?

James Grenning 28:39
Yeah, definitely. So they want. So these are woolly mammoths, because when they were run last time, it was an ice age. Yes. If you bring them back now, it'll be an ice age, again, is that the logic or activism more complicated than that?

Daniel Markham 28:55
It's quite complex. I read a comment on Hacker News that they were explaining that you have to breed these elephants to get the thing to work. And then but if you breed them with an elephant, you really got a Willie, you know, mellophone or something, you got something that's not a woolly mammoth. And so the question was, how much can you take away from a woolly mammoth and still have a woolly mammoth? That's the woolly mammoth of thesis, which is kind of a Philistine. Rossby joke. Yeah, I don't know. I don't know what they're gonna do. I don't know where they would live with

James Grenning 29:28
climate change, though. I mean, yeah.

Daniel Markham 29:30
Oh, yeah. This is Yeah, this is their point about the loss or it's like, they're gonna make madness to insert here. Climate change. Yes, that's what we're gonna we're gonna fight climate change.

James Grenning 29:41
Okay, and so I'm going back to my premise when it was cold the last time woolly mammoths were here. So therefore, if we had woolly mammoths again, it will be cold again.

Daniel Markham 29:50
I believe that I think you're absolutely right. I

James Grenning 29:53
that's how the science works. Okay, least I'm a scientist now.

Daniel Markham 29:57
Well, yeah, this this fits into Elan musk. Last your plan to colonize Mars because Mars very cold, right? Yeah, so yeah, you take a herd of woolly mammoths you stick them on Mars a while they'd have to have masks but they would be fine.

James Grenning 30:12
Yeah All right.

Daniel Markham 30:16
Yeah, this is this call do get a bit

James Grenning 30:17
you're gonna need a bigger spaceship

Daniel Markham 30:19
you're gonna get big this sculpt de extinction and if this works this will be the first time we've done it that Dodo birds have been lying there's a bunch of other ones we want to try I want to see the Tasmanian Tiger again that thing is awesome.

James Grenning 30:31
So we're going to take some of the genes that they can find you know off of a dead woolly mammoth and splice them into embryos of of elephants to see if they can make one of these things

Daniel Markham 30:42
and be kind of like taking like extinct cheetahs and having lions give birth they're close enough that probably going to work but they're going to have to tweak it a little bit and that tweaking means that won't exactly be your will be met.

James Grenning 30:54
Yeah, okay. Haven't they seen Jurassic Park though? It's gonna go wrong here.

Daniel Markham 30:59
We did. The thing is really sad. I want I want to see the Tasmanian Tiger which would stick in 1930 they can't do the tiger very easily because it's so weird. There's nothing really close to it that you can breed with.

James Grenning 31:14
Is that like kids Manian devil?

Daniel Markham 31:16
It is not. It's there's one set of footage. I've got it linked somewhere. And it's I don't know what day it's dog large dog sized. It has stripes but just on the back of it. It has a pouch. And it's it's it's it's hair this pointy instead of like a dog sheet.

James Grenning 31:35
It has like a pointy head. It's like a nasty opossum is like

Daniel Markham 31:39
a nasty dog. Zebra. Yeah.

James Grenning 31:45
marsupials are gonna rule again, I guess.

Daniel Markham 31:47
Oh, yeah. That's we're gonna have something right. There's madness around. Maybe that will

James Grenning 31:51
pass through platypus?

Daniel Markham 31:53
called a platypus? Yeah, what? What the hell? it you know, they've got like seven things bolted on to this one animal?

James Grenning 32:03
Where were they hanging out? when they're in their formative years?

Daniel Markham 32:06
Yeah, you can't tell me that somebody hasn't already been playing around with this woolly mammoth idea. This next story is badly I'm all for

James Grenning 32:17
it. You know, climate change serious business. So with Willie Magnus will help we better go there.

Daniel Markham 32:22
I don't know what the hell happened is we James is worried about any kind of new medication. But there's just been a silly story, this really silly stories. F sharp designer on downsides of typeclass program. Just to review what type class programming is, if you're old guy, you have a class, it has a parent. And that's inheritance. And that parent can do things for you. And you don't have to do it that so considered to be a good thing. There's a lot of issues with it. Some guys don't use it. functional languages. Many times might want to write a program that you say, hey, this one function, I want to take any kind of function you send me but that function has to support, print, that function has to support whatever, or that type. So if you send, say, I make this type called new string, well, if your string has to support length than these things, whenever you type you send me it's got to support this stuff. If it's sports stuff, I don't care about the rest of it, I'll just call these methods and send whatever you want back. Yeah, so in a way, it's it's sort of like, when you have a interface, you require like an a virtual inheritance situation, where you like, throw me whatever you got, but it has to have this virtual parent that supports these virtual interfaces. So it's like that. But at the type level, people have asked about this in F sharp for some time, it's a few things it's missing from Oh, camel. The problem is, and I agree with this is the designer of F sharp, and I agree with everything he says this is good to read, is this is an easy thing to say. But you get lost in the weeds really quickly. And what happens is, you start preparing the type system instead of the actual types themselves. And then you make errors in the type system, and then the people who are making the language have to go back. And they're always redoing this higher level of typeclass stuff, instead of like making the language more fun to use. It's a good discussion here on why we're not gonna put typeclass programming in F sharp, if you learn you some Haskell, and I've played with it a little bit, that one of the first things they want to do is you create a type to do something, create a function to do the type. And then all magics magic, you can create a type class so that that function works with anything that's has that type class on it. And it's really cool. It's much it's cool in the same way the first time you see polymorphism work, you know, oh thing. It's like, wow, yeah, that's, that's awesome. You just support that and I do it.

James Grenning 34:56
So why did this make me makes me think of templates. And

Daniel Markham 35:02
yes, but pretty much that I've got typically c++ classes and it just becomes extremely gnarly right away. Yeah, there's his comment is utility which is point, simple type classes never sufficient, resulting a concentrated request for more and more type level programming. And advanced combination of type class like features can often result obfuscated subtle code, freakin awesome. And if he gets this, he really gets this. The adding features in this space leads to a trajectory towards more and more type level programming. This has serious compilation and performance issues, you end up having to have a profiler for your type level computations. It just, it makes a mess out of the coding and compilation part of creating code. And his point is, why do this adding hierarchical type of classification can result in programming communities that spend most of their time talking about the right way? organize the universal type classes? Experience surprising, dogmatic discussion, it's a great list of No, we're never gonna we're not doing this. We're never going to do it. Good. This is Dan sight.

James Grenning 36:15
Good. So you're an F sharp guy. So you get this?

Daniel Markham 36:19
Well, I think it's this is this is much the same as the Java folks saying we're not going to do multiple characters. It's like, we're just we maybe we could write But no, it's just, it's not worth the trade off.

James Grenning 36:30
Yeah, why bother? And then, you know, they do it support multiple interface inheritance. Java, C sharp, this is sensible. Well, you get sort of a whole class of problems that you don't, you don't need so is this basically people are asking for multiple inheritance. And in

Daniel Markham 36:47
knights, basically, they want to inherit into the in multiple inheritance, and multiple levels into a particular you say integer, but it's not really an integer. It's an energy that does all these special things. And it's not clear to the function calling that it's one kind of energy or another because it does the one thing in nature does. And so then you end up sending these things that look like integers all through your code with God knows what the hell piggybacking on top of it, and at some point, it blows off.

James Grenning 37:16
Right, you you do an increment, and that causes you to reformat your SSD.

Daniel Markham 37:20
Are you doing commit and suddenly you get your return a four times from any one increment? Sir, what the hell out against us?

James Grenning 37:27
Well, that would be a violation of the liskov principle.

Daniel Markham 37:31
It would see that's what that's what she that's the thing. This call for those is the single responsibility. Yeah. So

James Grenning 37:41
let's open close substitutability.

Daniel Markham 37:45
You know, the thing is, is that once you get into the type system, and you want to like meta control the type system, well, guess what, you just made yourself a complete language designer. And you've got to make a rock solid piece of code. And that may be cool for you may love that may be a fun thing for a mental exercise. But the schmuck who's maintaining this stuff, probably not so much.

James Grenning 38:06
Yeah. Okay, this herding behavior is usually a bad thing.

Daniel Markham 38:15
And especially stack, when you stack virtual things could get really, really complex quite quickly. Even with single inheritance, multiple, you can use single heritance, where each of the layers inheritance has multiple interfaces, it can, you can be really, really ugly with this

James Grenning 38:31
trend, any handoff, it's ways to control access to certain subsets of features by certain clients and such. So there could be some utility in it, but

Daniel Markham 38:44
I remember seeing the polymorphism thing in c++ Iger tops, okay, this is really cool. I can do a switch case on the the thing it supports. I'm not sure the trade offs, were there looking back on 20 years of coding.

James Grenning 38:58
Or compatibility, where there's actually substitutable in the light doesn't know the difference. That's,

Daniel Markham 39:06
I use it. Yeah, that may actually work. We're building a library and you're saying, Okay, I've got this stuff. I'm sticking on top of your type, but you never ever, ever have to worry about it. Okay.

James Grenning 39:17
Yeah, I'm talking, you know, so in an embedded system, and the example I use is home automation. And if you, if you want the scheduler to turn on a light, you know, what does it need to know the model number of the light or could just say, hey, like, you should turn on, and then the family of all lights that know how to turn themselves on, you know, can be used with that. That's, you know, that's where the advice behind solid would lead you. Not to some elaborate inheritance. Yes, it gives you to not do that. And I

Daniel Markham 39:47
think that one of the key points here is using primitives and single levels of inheritance. It's almost always a really cool looking thing that works incredible. something you'd never want to give up stubbing out, like you said, with the lights for you Call them alike method. And that's cool, cool stuff. It really just, you just can't but you can't keep piling it is the problem?

Transcribed by https://otter.ai